(706) E33: What It Takes to Be a Revenue Leader in the AI Era with Mike Donohue, CRO of 11x - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y2_zzxa1mE

Transcript: (00:02) [Music] Hello and welcome to the revenue leadership podcast by Topline. I'm your host Kyle Norton, CRO atoner.com and every Wednesday we dive deep into the strategies and tactics being used to drive success by the best revenue leaders in the world. So, join me as I sit down with revenue operators to discuss actionable frameworks that you can implement in your business today with no fluff, no sales pitches, and no platitudes. (00:39) This episode is brought to you by Salespape.ai. Sales Ape is the AI powered sales assistant that engages your inbound leads instantly, answers questions, and books sales meetings without you needing to hire extra staff. Built for any company with more than 100 leads a month. Sales Ape ensures no leads slip through the cracks. More sales meetings, more deals, less hassle. (00:58) Grow without the overhead. Try Sales Ape for free at salesape.ai/kyle. Today's guest is Mike Donahghue, who is the CRO at 11X. and 11X for those of you who don't know uh they build digital workers for go to market teams one of the leading companies in this AI uh evolution so really excited to dig in on all things AI in the future with Mike and Mike's had a very exciting career uh he started at Square subund employees where he was in sales leadership for three years then he joined PayPal to uh start the goto market team for the shopping product and (01:42) was there from basically zero all the way through $350 million uh in ARR uh and was the head of commercialization. So that was a super exciting stint. And most recently uh he was the SVP of global sales at Groupshot. Grupshot. What's the pronunciation? Gupsh. Okay, that's a mouthful. And uh he's joined 11X uh in the last few quarters uh as CRO to grow their team. (02:12) And so I'm really excited for this one. You know, it's a really uh varied interesting career that we can dive into and we're going to talk uh all things AI and uh how how you see the market playing out. We'll get into this concept of the forward deployed engineer within go to market which is uh really fascinating uh and uh get into the details of how people can evolve because if they don't I don't think the market's going to be particularly kind to them. (02:41) So, uh, let's start there. Um, what is your sense on where people are at in this go to market evolution? Like there's the commentary on LinkedIn, which would make you feel like everybody's doing all of this AI stuff, but you guys are an AI startup. You talk to a bunch of CRO's. Where do you think uh adoption is today for the average series BC SAS company? Yeah, awesome. (03:12) Yeah, thanks for having me, Kyle. I'm really excited to speak about this. Um, I always uh there's like that curve that you see about uh like kind of new markets and new technologies and I think like very much now we're in this like new like early adopter phase. Um, and it's really exciting. I was actually listening to one of your earlier podcasts. (03:34) You had this quote of, you know, it's much so was about experimenting with AI tools and how valuable that is and how it's much riskier to uh it's much riskier to like not experiment with multiple uh different AI tools than to have like one of them not work out. And I'm really really seeing that in like this early adopter phase. Like the companies that I think are are really winning are trying like five to 10 different products and some of them like very like regimented of like trying five different AI products on a quarterly basis and really keeping the (04:07) ones that are working um and just like like it's really changing their organization. I think like six months ago we were in this phase of maybe like six months to a year ago we were in this like phase of like creative like claude and chat GPT prompting of building you know reports um you know personalizing emails and then now we're really entering this kind of like application phase where there's a number of companies that are building specific uh AI native tools for go to market teams uh solving um you know roles of SDRs, (04:47) AEES, revenue operations and uh yeah it's really uh it's really exciting to see uh these products and and how they can change uh a lot of the operation flows. Yeah. And so when you talk to the average CRO uh and a hundred a h 100red out of a hundred being everything is AI native they've got you know digital solutions engineers on calls and an AISDR on their website that that being 100 and zero being like I don't have a single AI workflow in my company and I I maybe uh look up some recipes with chat GPT that that's like a a zero. Where are most (05:27) folks today on that spectrum? Yeah, I'd say around like 20. It's really interesting. There's a there's different groups of I think there's like three tiers of companies. There's like the really like, you know, mature, really large tech companies. Um, there's kind of like these, you know, mid-stage growth companies and then there's these early uh new startups that are coming up. (05:51) And I'm seeing the most adoption from these early startups and they're kind of like, okay, clean slate. I'm building, you know, a new company. I'm building a new go to market, you know, organization and I want to build it, you know, AI first. And um I think they have like the least amount of debt so it's easier for them to do that. (06:10) Um and I see these companies like foundationally being built in a different way. And then I see kind of this like mid tier of companies, you know, adopting a lot of different tools, kind of experimenting. And then I see like the like really large like large large, you know, companies like wanting to be uh AI native but like wanting to use AI but they're like very much at like kind of the the the zero. (06:38) And I think uh you see a lot of like I think like those types of you know companies you see like a lot of uh I like love that like post from the Shopify uh CEO. Yeah. really like pushing the or like like this it's like just it's uh you're really moving like thousands of people to operate in an entirely different way and I think that's why it's harder for some of those larger companies where when you're just building with a team of five you're like hey this is you know how we operate these are the tools that we use to grow our business it's we don't have to like (07:10) change and displace everything um and there's a lot a lot uh they're getting a lot more speed on that And so if um for the Sierros that aren't adopting, you know, they're like, "Oh, RevOps is doing some stuff," but like AI is the domain of RevOps and uh maybe they're a little more hesitant to uh dive in with two feet. (07:40) Do you think they can still be CRO's in high growth companies in 24 months? Yeah, I uh yeah, yeah, I think so. Um I mean like let me just like re like rephrase the question back to you like if um like if uh like CRS CRS like don't adopt AI they're no longer there's a basket yeah there's a basket of resistant folks who are either taking a wait and see approach or don't think that they necessarily need to make that a core part of their job. (08:17) Like I I my approach is I mean I think this is one of the most important things for a revenue leader to be able to figure out. I'm in the tools every day myself. I'm like vibe coding apps and wind surf just for fun and um I'm like all in. So I'm on one part of the spectrum and because I believe this is you know the single biggest platform change any of us have ever seen in our careers and potentially the biggest one in like a hundred years. (08:42) And but then there's some folks that are just like I don't think I need to be that level of sophistication. I don't think people need to be vibe coding and wind surf as a CRO. I I just think it's fun. But the the folks that are are like, you know, AI like RevOps will figure out AI. That doesn't need to be a core capability for me individually. (09:05) Do you think the way the world is going to move that that person will be no longer relevant in 24 months or is there a way to be a CRO and a and not make this like a core uh expertise? Yeah. Yeah. Here's my prediction that we're like in this like early adopter phase right now and the companies that are adopting you know AI are just getting like massive efficiency and if you look at like you know really high growth you know companies there's like there's like standards of growth that develop like there's like rule of 40 like rule of 60 (09:43) and I think I think like AI is going to really set new like performance growth efficiency standards And I think the CRO's that are like hesitant are going to they're not going to know how to really implement uh you know those types of like efficiencies. They're not going to know how to hit those metrics. (10:05) Um you know I'm seeing like you know if you look at like companies like you know 11X um or like Clay or like I mean we're like optimizing like entire SDR teams um you know and really changing the the workflow of um of uh like really changing the workflow of like really large SDR teams to like move from you know hundreds of person SDR teams that you know, large companies to having, you know, a single uh go to market engineer or a single uh person that, you know, builds a uh workflow for outreach. (10:49) Um, and it's yeah, it's really it's really changing. It's moving from like having large teams of like massive headcount to having, you know, two or three people sometimes within a marketing org like manage a team of agents. And just the efficiency that you get with very similar or even greater results um is like pretty pretty amazing. (11:12) I think this uh I absolutely think this is like something every like CRO should be paying attention to is uh really the efficiency gains um and how you can just grow faster with with AI. Yeah, I think it's existential. Yeah, I think I I think and I was saying before we recorded, I just got off the stage with Jason Lmin at Saster and we talked about go to market um AI and one of the things I shared was like I think the competitive advantage of of being AI native is so great that if you're a company run by a CRO who really gets it and is like allin, you're going to out (11:51) compete everybody in your market that isn't adopting And I I truly think that like people will get left behind in a way that is even more profound than if you were resistant to the um sales acceleration boom. Like if you were using sales loft and your competitors weren't, you were booking way more meetings on a per BDR basis. (12:15) And I think it's going to be even more profound and a a bigger competitive advantage. Yeah. And I would even go as far to say like there's like two categories of like kind of like AI CRO. There's ones that invest in like co-pilot solutions which I think gives you one level of efficiency and then there's like fully agendic solutions that are coming to market. (12:33) And I even think that like the co-pilot solutions that are coming out are like it's like merely a stepping stone like the rate of change that you know foundation models are uh getting better and the capabilities of like aentic like software like I really think like there's going to be like a wave of like two to three years where like these co-pilot solutions are you know really viable and they're more efficient than you know just you know really large really large teams individually managed. (13:04) Um and then I think kind of like the next wave is like like when you just operate fully agentic workflows and you really don't even you know need uh like you know need uh yeah like kind of these co-pilot you know tools like so like as a CRO that's like really how I think about it is like okay you know for the last 10 years most of us have operated you know with really just managing like really you know large teams of different you know different functions within a go to market organization. (13:33) Okay, that's if that's like your current state today, how do you like get from there to like a fully like agentic workflow? Um, and really like think about making that stepping stone. I think like like a natural progression is being like, okay, first step I'm going to go from like, you know, leveraging AI to do like co-piloted uh, you know, messaging. (13:54) There's like a number of like pre-call research stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Where you're essentially like using Yeah. AI for research. Yeah. And like getting scripts etc. Um and I think that's like phase one. And then I think like phase two is like really investing in you know fully agentic workflows. (14:16) I uh really see that as the future. Yeah. And so that's actually like by and large where like the internet is going too. Um my last role I worked like uh we were the leading uh we had like about 80% of the market share for WhatsApp business messaging. I really see the internet as like itself as like becoming conversational. (14:38) We're like moving from these structured workflows to like these unstructured workflows. We're moving from like clicking and searching on websites to uh speaking with uh like natural language. We're moving from you know computer speaking uh we're moving from human speaking computer language to computer speaking human language and I think you know we'll like a lot of the way that we uh interact with like the internet will be will be through agents and will be be conversational and um I think that's something revenue leaders should like (15:11) really think about is okay in this dynamic that you know buyers are used to speaking with you know agents to make transactions or to navigate the internet or to research and look up things like how can we uh you know build revenue teams and customerf facing sales teams that really uh yeah really uh you know mirror that. (15:36) Yeah. And and so I want to get into what the org actually looks like at 11x but just explain what a digital worker is. Yeah. A digital worker is essentially uh you know it's also called an AI agent. Um we have two digital workers. We have uh Alice and and Julian. Alice is a email agent and Julian is a voice agent. (15:58) And essentially now what a digital worker is um both Alice and Julian are conversational interfaces. One's through uh email uh LinkedIn uh like what's or WhatsApp and the other one's through uh voice. And you know what these agents do beyond like speaking with like chat GBT is they uh they perform really complex workflows. (16:26) Um they you know do uh identification of prospects. They do personalized outreach, personalize the messaging and then they do all the updates of the system of record. So upon having a conversation with a prospect, they'll go into, you know, your CRM Salesforce, they'll update that lead, update the contact information with all the research that they've done. (16:53) Uh it will record the call and log that in the CRM or it will uh provide the um it will provide the email email transcript as well. So that uh it really creates a new uh marketing qualified opportunity and then books a calendar invite on that saleserson's calendar. So that salesperson shows up, they have a meeting that was booked via this digital worker and they uh are ready to go. (17:23) It's fully qualified and they have you know all the research and information that an SDR would have typically done and they can yeah begin their sales process there. Okay. So how much is um so actually first question how many BDRs and AES do you have today like human ones? We don't have any BDRs. Um, and we have we have about 17 uh salespeople in the company. Okay. (17:51) Full cycle. They're doing some prospecting. And and the most impressive thing is I've never been in a sales organization where the A's have not asked for more SDR support. And I know someone on my team will probably listen to this, but I haven't heard anyone say, you know, we need we need more BDRs here. (18:09) Um, it's it's really interesting. And so how much of their funnel is coming from digital human outreach versus their own outreach? Uh over 90% is coming from uh digital worker outreach. Okay. And and are is that centrally orchestrated or is each rep running agents that are doing outreach on their behalf? we will we have plans to you know move move more towards that but right now it's centrally centrally located and that's how I see most most organizations you know running running these workflows like you know I I just want sales people (18:51) to be really good at selling I want them to have really qualified meetings and you know run those customers through a great sales process and you know really be focused on closing and I see that these these workflows are really being um it's kind of like we've seen this trend of like SDRs reporting into marketing um you know which which has emerged and I think with these like agent workflows you know it really makes sense um you know for they're almost like managing like campaigns through agents it's growth marketing it is (19:25) growth market absolutely I I really think this is the future of you know marketing in a lot of ways I mean if you look at this like I always like to like think of like kind of like the future and like what 10 years ago go look like what what five years ago looks like and what things might look like you know today and like for sales five years ago if you wanted to explore a new market you would hire a new BDR team place them in a new city uh wait six months for them to ramp up and see if it's working or not and continue to invest more or (19:55) less based on that today you can hire a team of digital workers place uh target a very specific geo very specific vertical and send like really personalized messaging there overnight. And then on the marketing side, like you know, today or five years ago, you'd send an email from like marketing at, you know, generic company. (20:17) com, like marketing.com or marketing at, you know, whatever uh uh specific company and you just send a lot of like updates about your company and hope to book meetings off of that. And it's like really personalized and everyone ignores those messages. And then today you can have, you know, marketing team really manage a team of of agents and, you know, manage Alice and, you know, Matt and a bunch of uh, you know, digital workers that work for that company have really, you know, highly personalized messaging that reflect your brand, reflect the markets (20:50) that they're selling into, reflect reflect those specific verticals, and have much higher conversion rates. Um, it's really interesting. H. And so what type of a volume is Alice doing every single week? Are like do you put in a certain number of accounts that corresponds to the capacity of the sales rep uh base that you have or are they making determinations like what's the coordination that that that growth team or growth engineering or whatever you're calling it is doing to get the right volume into funnel? Yeah. Yeah. That's (21:25) it's the exact same way that you'd manage an SDR team and really thinking about pipeline like we have you know we have partner qualified leads, marketing qualified leads, sales qualified leads and we really think about um you know digital worker leads being a part of the marketing qualified lead and we expect have a predictable ACV. (21:45) We have a predictable close rate that comes from that channel. um and it develops over time and we track it and we every month based on our targets, you know, really look at, you know, the volumes that we anticipate from those digital worker campaigns. Okay. Could you turn it up 2x in like a week if you wanted? Um yeah, we could run more like more more campaigns like absolutely. (22:11) I think there's like a lot of different ways to do Yeah. to do outbound like we uh like we absolutely have done that in the past. You know, we'll like look at like close loss deals and run some additional campaigns there. It's like it's actually really interesting like it formally with like SDR teams, it's really hard to run multiple different campaign types. (22:32) I've really seen that in the past. It's like, you know, kind of doing outbound and you're like, "Okay, well, we're doing this event next week. Let's do that." that like if we see that we're, you know, short on pipeline or want to accelerate a given month, we can get together and, you know, create a strategy on a new campaign type to run with digital workers. (22:51) And we don't have to teach a team of, you know, 20 people to stop what they're doing and start doing it. It really is a team of, you know, three to five people um who are, you know, coordinating these campaigns and running them to a specific segment of our business that we weren't necessarily marketing to before. and trying to get some pipeline acceleration out of it. (23:13) I also see this like these kind of like rapid iterations with you know releasing new products, new pricing. Um it really enables you to move a lot faster in that way. Um are you doing any outbound calling on top of the digital worker campaigns? We do speed to lead campaigns. So if someone um calls in uh or someone completes a lead form, then we reach out to them with a digital worker and qualify them uh and then book a meeting via voice. (23:50) So that's not even a rep. That's Julian the voice agent. Yep. And that's really interesting. Um, we see like a significantly higher conversion rate on speed to lead based on when someone who fills out a form is is contacted. So like if someone fills if someone is contact within a minute of filling out a lead form, they convert uh like a 10x multiple higher than if someone out after five minutes. (24:19) And you know with AI we can predictably do that like like every time like and it's it's really interesting. replacing like things as rudimentary as like a voicemail. Like there's like leading media companies that like after hours will have like a voicemail if you call their sales line and um or like uh you know or if you fill out a lead form at you know 10 p.m. (24:41) on a Friday um you know you won't hear Monday till till Monday. um know we can have you know digital workers like call 24/7 um based on when someone completes a form and uh we can get a lot more information than someone would fill out in a form as well like you know this is like kind of like the structured unstructured workflow like just candidly like no one wants to sit and like fill out like this is why I'm contacting you like it's like name email phone number but when an agent calls you you can have a conversation and it's a lot easier to (25:14) share information and answer questions and it's very relevant because you just filled out the form a minute ago. Um, and these types of workflows are are really really interesting. Um, it's like one of the biggest insights is like you can absolutely capture more information a more natural way um, you know, with uh with like a voice interface than with filling out a random lead form on a website. Mhm. (25:45) Well, one of the things I think folks struggle with is, you know, they look at 11x and uh using digital workers makes so much sense because you're selling digital workers. So like when I when I'm contacted with like pretty good outreach from a digital worker and then I have a voice agent, it the it's going to resonate with the buyer because they're they're trying to buy that category of solution. (26:12) And I think the question is, you know, how much can you apply that learning to other markets where like we won't use owner as an example because like SMB mom and pop restaurants are like probably a trickier category, but if I'm trying to sell HR tech to like CHRO's or VPs of HR, like how do you know how do you know what level of AI is going to resonate with the buyer versus how much human touch like you guys doing no outbound calls makes a ton of sense. (26:49) Uh but it would surprise me if other non like if you're selling like you know nonAI solutions if if no outbound calling is the right fit like what what's the process of figuring out are there particular markets that you guys are dialed into? Are there like buying types? How do you go figure out like can AI work for me? Yeah, that's such a great question. (27:10) I spend so much time thinking about this as well. Okay. Um yeah. Um it's really where like everyone is in this experimental you know phase. Um and you know what we focus on are like use cases that we know consistently work like the speed to lead after hours use case like the alternative you know is a voicemail or someone calling you back multiple days later like that. (27:34) You know those use cases like very specifically work. I think verticals are really interesting. we like see like even a mix of like non and non- tech and tech um you know verticals that um you know that that have success with with digital workers like it's really like if you have like a salesforce um you know you can really automate it uh or you know automate definitely a portion of it through through digital workers. (28:03) Um, I think the biggest determinant that I I really see and I think this is like really interesting of um of companies being successful with their AI is willing like willingness to like and like excitement almost to learn like AI best AI go to market best practices like you know learning how to prompt um learning how to create uh templates that have fixed text and AI generated text, you know, within them. (28:36) Um, there's like actually a much deeper level like we were talking earlier about like companies that experiment with AI tools and then it's companies that understand, you know, how to use AI tools and especially building like focusing on customer success. This is something that we're really really focused on is really I think the companies the AI native companies or the companies that build AI products that are going to be really successful are are like experts in really educating their customers on how to use uh AI tools, how to you know do basic level (29:09) prompt engineering, how to understand how to uh you know set up agents to integrate into you know CRM and great products make that you know as as easy as possible. um and really understand these like agentic workflows. I think that like determines like that's like what really determines like good from great uh clients is ones that are like oh AI I should try it versus like oh I really believe in this this can transform my organization I really you know uh our customer success teams are really educating them on like AI GTM best (29:45) practices this is how I should think about prompts this is how we can work together to build prompts for specific markets specific verticals specific use cases is um and I think uh that's like really the future of like companies is like uh and I think that like gives us like an advantage like everyone who works like at 11x is like really AI oriented and like knows how to like is like really like knows how to use these products and tools and build them and I think the companies that really succeed in this era of adopting AI software are the ones (30:22) that are really focused on um you know teaching their you know workforces like how to how to use AI effectively. Something I'm like paying attention to like like every day like um like that's the like number one interview question I ask people is like how do you use AI in your workflow? And I'm always trying to learn um from you know different sales people of how they're how they're getting better and leveraging that. (30:48) I've mandated this for um management and sort of leveraged a uh IC roles. I said that I I've told my senior leaders I'm like if you're hiring managers I need you to ask about AI and if somebody has no answer to it then they are disqualified because yeah I would imagine you do for sure. Um, but it's the level of importance that I think this has and I I think you just need to drive the the the adoption. (31:21) Uh, I loved Toby's letter uh Shopify. There was another one that was just written by uh the guy from Dualingo. Like it's it's now a theme. Yeah. Absolutely. So So you mentioned teaching AI best practices. So I want to unpack a couple of those. So, uh, focus on teaching your workforce how to use AI. So, making your your organization fluent is obviously one. (31:48) What else are sort of the AI transformation best practices if you're and let's focus on if I'm like AI curious? I've only done a little bit of I've only like dipped my toe in the water. I've used chat a little bit, but like I'm not I'm not deep in it. Like, where do I start? Yeah. Yeah. I would even like zoom out like I think like a lot of organ like sometimes in companies like company culture of like AI using AI is cheating like sometimes people feel that way and like that is like one of the most like harmful things that you could have within your company like you (32:21) really need to like encourage everyone to like fully embrace this and share the way that they're you know the ways that they're they're using uh you know AI yeah get in the weeds like use everything like experiment like four to five like AI products like talk to other CRO, ask them what products that they're using. (32:41) Um, you know, try them out for yourselves. Um, like have a really like experimental mindset. If you rely on your teams to use these products and don't use themselves, like I love that you're like, you know, v code v five coding on wind surf like like really get in the weeds and like really deeply understand that. (32:59) I've always seen the best that's like the one trait I feel like is always the like really consistent amongst like the best CRM is they use their products, they use their tech, they really under understand uh like how their tech relates in the ecosystem like why it's better than other competitors at like a really like like a user level and I think like like you know this is like a time where like CRO's like really need to lead from the front in terms of you know teaching ing teams how to use like AI tools like teaching teams like how to like how to prompt (33:33) um teaching you know teaching teams like really like how to think about how to think about this tech like using chat GBT and like Claude to like do basic research is like that was like that was like new 6 12 months ago but like it's there's like there's like so much so much deeper levels um we're using this product recently like called like like quilt and it like automates like full security questionnaires for our right and it saves them like like hours of time and then we're looking at using like glean for our our CS teams and um (34:09) yeah it's just like it's like really like getting in and seeing and like really like starting to think in this you know in in this way of like these product workflows is really uh it's it's like an absolute like necessary skill to have and you got to take the demos You know, it's it's it seems overwhelming and it seems like the last thing you want to spend two hours a week on, but this is advice I'm giving to people. (34:36) It's like you just got to take the demos. As much as it seems like uh not the best use of time, you got to figure out what's out there, what's what's possible. And whenever I take these demos, one of the things I say to the founder, I'm like, I I don't really want the product demo. I want you to show me like live use cases. like show me what customers are doing and the art of the possible because really what I'm trying to do is yeah I want to see the product but I'm trying to see like what is what are the most sophisticated companies doing and and how can I how (35:06) can I mimic it? Yeah, that's such a good point. Like the way that I learn about how our products works is I go to our most most successful like customers and I like impersonate like their workflows and I look through them and I am like wow this is like this is why you're successful and and it's like it's really interesting. (35:26) There's a high correlation with the companies that have that are building AI products and the companies that are successful using AI products. Yeah, I think yes for sure it's it is like it's like a night and day uh correlation there and I really it's a cultural thing you know it's these organizations that are operating in this way and thinking in this way and building in this way and then they're using all of these different products and tools in this way and then it's uh it's really interesting I can look at (35:55) two companies in the exact same vertical and one is you know has like an AI mindset same like TAM same uh you ICP and just the way that they're, you know, building workflows, um, the way that they're, you know, prompting is, um, it's, yeah, really, really, really interesting and like that's why I'm like really so focused on like, you know, for AI native companies today, like educating having like really great like education uh, practices on like how to teach your customers about AI even outside of your the scope of your, you (36:32) know, products is is really really important. important. Yeah. So, what are those primitives? Like you you mentioned prompt engineering as one. If I'm a CRO and I'm trying to go sort of fill in my mental model of what is AI and how can I use it? Like what were what would be the baskets of things you would tell somebody to go learn? Yeah, absolutely. (36:55) [Music] Um, yeah, that's a really good question. If I were like a CRO and I'm like really like trying to, you know, I'm not using AI products. I'm I'm really new to this. Like I would like I think like first I would like really look at like I would I would I go to all my leaders, right? I go to like RevOps, I go to my SDR leader, I go to my AE leaders, I go to my sales managers and I would ask them to each come up with like three to five different solutions uh in ways that they can leverage, you know, AI within to to (37:30) optimize their teams. And I actually wouldn't have them go and pick specific products. I was saying if you could have like a single product or like what is your team like yeah if you could like build like any specific like you know product to like really make your team like 10x more efficient what what would it be? And I think then like within each of those teams we would do like a mix of like okay let's pick like three of those five use cases that we feel like are most important. (37:58) let's uh let's see if like we can build like you know through like through LLMs or through like or through like discovery of like products on the market like how we can really solve that. I think it's like it's as that that type of like leadership is as important as hiring. Like I think that's the new way to hire almost in a lot of ways is like instead of like finding people that are really specialized and can find solutions like really great leaders can go out and identify um identify products or identify um you know workflows with like cloud or (38:37) chat GBT that can like really make their teams more efficient. And I would like hold all my leaders like really accountable to um to building yeah building those different solutions. And that's not we're a pretty small or I mean but that's not too far off the way that I speak with my leaders you know today. It's like we're really like all focused on you know identifying and bringing forward like three to five different AI solutions a quarter that can really help us you know grow and scale as a company in addition to what we're you know (39:07) building ourselves. Yeah, that makes sense. And so fill in the blanks for me here. So if I was going to tell a CRO like these are the baskets of things you need to figure out. So I think it's the tools like go learn the tools. Figure out what are the foundation models, what are the core things in a market. (39:29) There's prompt engineering. There's something around architecture. You got to figure out how some of this stuff like plugs in and works with one another. and not as deep as like you got to go learn Python and figure out how APIs and web hooks work, but like you have to think through the the the map of how all this stuff is going to work. (39:52) And then I would say it's like Yeah, there go. Sorry. And and the last thing is like and the art of the possible and then just go figure out what the coolest use cases are out there. What what what else would you say are like the categories of of education or learning people need to do? I think like agents people really like I think a lot of people like nod their heads when they like talk about AI and like agents and they're like this is really new and like like really understanding like what agentic workflows like like really mean. Um (40:22) yeah, it's actually a question I like ask a lot of people. I'm like, "Oh, do you know what like agents, you know, like really really do?" And because it took me like a really long time. Like I was totally that person at first. I was like, "Yeah, I kind of know what an agent is. It's like an AI person, but it's actually so much deeper than that. (40:38) It's like it's a conversational interface that connects that is like an application layer that really connects to all the systems like all these different systems of record and you know does like does work like makes makes updates, makes purchases you know processes returns like Claude and Chad GPT are like not are not agents. (41:01) they are just you know base form the way that 99% of us you know use them like you know it's really just you know using as an LLM to have you know conversations and um you know maybe build like a a chart or graph but like a lot of these you know new products that are coming out are like fully agentic workflows that automate multiple you know different connected systems and really replicate you know a lot of different workflows and I think doing a lot of like research into this like uh into like aentic software is really interesting like if (41:37) you I think that's there was like the Satcha uh video I watched like probably six months or a year ago and like this like Agent software truly has the ability to replace like traditional B2B SAS. It's an entirely different way of of building. You know, we're moving from business systems that are built on like SQL databases and rows and lookups to like full like, you know, LLMs that are connected to multiple systems of record and, you know, making updates. (42:06) And by the way, those LLMs are consistently getting better each month. And it's just a really different way of of building building software. And I think being in touch in tune with the market and you know how these companies are being built and how what new products are coming to market is really is really critical for for revenue leaders. (42:28) Yeah, it's tough too because everybody's calling everything an agent now. You know, anything that's AI, it's like, oh, this is my AI agent. And I I I my definition which is more of the like old school definition is it has to be able to reason, take action and then and choose from different paths and access other tools. (42:53) And if your agent, you know, takes in input and then does a thing, it's an AI workflow. But I I think agents need to need to like make decisions about how to solve a problem, then be able to access multiple tools to solve that problem. That's a much higher bar than I think people are are using the word agent for. But, you know, Sam Alman has that same like five levels of of AI. (43:18) There's sort of the chat is level one and then like verticalme. So it's, you know, it's a tailor, it's a it's an AI that's tailored for something like quite specific. Then there's agent that can execute like decide and execute. And then the fourth and fifth started to get into like AGI, ASI, like kind I don't even know. I'm not there yet either. (43:41) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm sure someday that'll be Yeah. more more more relevant. Yeah. It's just like like what work is it actually doing? Like I I really think like the conversational like you know chatbot interface is like is is like really phased out and it's really like what what work is like what work is the agent actually doing and automating. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. (44:08) Um a question I get all the time is like okay cool so you I got to go learn a bunch of these things like where do I go? There's no course. There are courses and most of them suck. Sorry to anybody building courses, but they get out of date so fast and and so uh you know there's no book on it. Nobody's written like the book that's going to be top topical for more than 60 days. (44:32) So like where do you direct people to to try to start learning this stuff? Yeah, it's hard is the question. It's hard because there's so much noise out there. Um yeah, I think you know the best best way to learn is like like you said like demos and like you know like exploration like having talking to other revenue leaders understanding what you know people are using understanding if they're having success. (45:03) I think there's also like a like you know a large part of like like understanding like like like yeah like understanding like why companies are being successful with with like really specific tools because I think like there is like something I was talking to um I was talking to I was having a call with Goku Rajaram the other day and he was he referred me this article that was really like talking about like buying aic uh software ware is like being like the early days of buying like SAS or or cloud-based software and like companies like you know really don't know how to (45:40) like like in the early days of software like teams didn't know how to use cloud-based software they were like totally new and novel to them and um you know it's I think we're very much in that same age now where um I really want to find like I really want to find the companies that are being successful with with with AI because I I think that's Like I think being successful with this type of software is it's like two it's like two two factors like one like embracing the idea of buying it but then two like embracing the idea of like (46:13) operationalizing your teams to like use and invest in it and um I think the I really want to like learn about and speak with like revenue leaders who are yeah bu like building like yeah like AI native operational uh teams like like really like leveraging like AI across uh across like multiple parts of their revenue organization and are having success across like multiple different products because that's like the difference of like that's like someone who like really gets it versus like the difference of someone who like (46:46) has had success with like one one individual, you know, product or tool. Yeah. Yeah. the I I tend to agree with you here like you you really have to find a group of people that are also on this journey and spend time like figuring out what they're doing. You know, Kevin Dorsey is a guy that I spend a lot of time texting with. (47:14) Like he's doing he's seeing demos, I'm seeing demos, we're like trading articles and uh ex posts and that is where I get a lot of exposure. Um, I think like finding that group of of other people in the same role to go along with, I think I think is good. Pavilion's pushing big into this right now because everybody's trying to figure it out, but like community, I think, is a big part of it. (47:38) I think there are two groups. There are like people that are kicking the tires on it and then there are people that are like really operationally investing in it. And I think like yeah, it's always trying to find those like leaders and those organizations that are like in the latter camp that are really are investing in these tools like um yeah like I I see like you know organiza because like when you make these operational and organizational changes it doesn't happen overnight you know like you're not going to have success the first like time you use one (48:11) of these tools. It's going to take there's a learning curve for sure and there definitely are the organizations that embrace these tools, try one or two use cases and are like oh this didn't work. Um it it doesn't work for me and then oh it hallucinated. It's no good. Oh it hallucinated. Yeah it's not good. (48:26) And then there are organizations that are like no this is a different way of working. We are going to make this work. We're going to like really operationalize our teams around it. We are you know going to look at it from a lot of different angles. we're going to learn how to, you know, prompt agents in the right way and those customers are really, you know, really successful and um yeah, I think there's like a really yeah really large part around um yeah around like you know like committing to this uh like AI (48:58) operational workflow and like and recognizing that is a really significant change from the way that your teams have interacted with you know previous software. This is very different than like buying Slack and implementing it or buying Gong or buying clary or these like you know simple tools that uh you know just plug in to you know Salesforce and provide a forecast report. (49:22) Yeah, it's I mean Slack in the early days was a big change going from like email to this that I would say that's that's actually sort of a good example of like the scale of transformation. And so, um, you you mentioned before we recorded, you know, this this like, uh, we wanted to dig into first principles thinking, you know, how do you think how do you solve problems from a first principles approach and not get caught up in just like doing what everybody else is doing or reasoning by analogy. (49:57) So uh maybe you can answer that question more generally like what is it about first principles thinking that's so important and how do you do it and then let's get into how do I from a first principles perspective think about my AI journey in my in my company. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I've always like been a really big fan of like first principles thinking. (50:19) Um, uh, it's like I feel like something that's like really important for like a revenue leader is like really breaking apart sales into like very specific steps for all of your teams. Like I love this like sales stage matrix template that I, you know, really use. is like you know and I really talk to like early founders about this like all the time like a sales process is really like five or six steps focus like broken down into you know activities gives gets exit criteria and resources to like enable each stage and I think you know with uh (50:54) with like this is like like kind of a moment like sales leadership like before like you used to have to be really prescriptive of being like hey the sales process like these are the very specific things that we're going to do, you know, at each stage to these are the resources that we're going to use um you know, to like really like get through get through uh you know, a deal and complete like a successful, you know, experience for a customer. (51:21) And um now I'm like very like I'm like rigid on the exit criteria, but I'm like very uh I'm like much more experimental in the oper operational uh operationalizing the stages. I'm like, you know what? Let's like really like use like different, you know, I want to really learn from my team like, you know, different ways that we're planning demos, creating resources. (51:45) Um, you know, how are we using AI within each stage to, you know, make a better a better sales process? Um it's kind of like I feel like this is like a yeah time of um kind of like yeah being like really like uh like breaking down like you know how can we be more experimental as revenue organization and I think from like a first principal standpoint it's like kind of forgetting a lot of like what you know in some ways and uh 11x we've been like an AI native company and we've focused on um you know we just built the um you know really based on uh a lot of (52:24) like the early results that we've seen with digital workers like you know we've we don't have like a standard like AE to SDR headcount you know that really uh you know doesn't exist the way that we plan um you know quotas and you know attainment uh you know is is largely based on results that we're seeing with this go to market motion I think I think sales has been like kind of boring for the last like 10 years where everyone's like copying the Salesforce playbook. (52:54) It's like a million dollar quota per rep. And yeah, this is a time where kind of like building these companies in a new way. You can be more creative and uh you know really design a go to market org and a go to market process in in a new way. definitely using a lot of the same frameworks that have always worked but being like yeah more experimental in some of the activities or headcount ratios or uh you know target settings that um you know we've had we've had in the past and like constantly refining on this because (53:31) uh I really believe this new operating model is going to create new standards of efficiency for companies and um yeah there's I think a lot of first principles thinking. Um, yeah, you know, it's a it's a yeah, good mindset to be in. And so, how do you become a better first principal thinker? Because I think, you know, the headcount to or uh OTE to quota ratios and the the headcount ratios and how do we run sales stages, you know, those are those were derived from something good. (54:06) And so how do you delineate between, you know, outsourcing critical thinking to best practices versus like being a first principles thinker? How do how do you get better at at at that? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um I think just like first being really close to the being really close to the data. um you know being really close to your teams like and then like what I really think like first principles thinking is is just breaking everything down into like really simple steps and like analyzing each like each individual step and (54:40) thinking and and kind of experimenting if you can make it more efficient. Um, that's actually like like uh that's like a mindset that I've always like really really had. Um, is like I used to do like rowing and like you'd like break down like a stroke into like very individual parts and you try to like you'd really focus and like try to optimize each part of like putting the blade in the water and that made the boat faster. (55:06) And I really think of sales the same way of like really breaking down like you know each you know part of um you know a sales process or each part of you know a marketer's role or partnership's role and really like understanding what goes into that and being like okay you know can we make this better? Can we optimize this more? Can we do this more efficiently? Can we do this at higher quality? Can we do this you know with the power of you know 10 people with two or three um and really like yeah breaking things down in that way. Yeah. Um, so being closer to (55:42) the data, breaking things down, anything else to become a better first principles thinker, making bets. I think you know um I think this is like a new you know this is a like a very like new uh you know era of growth for you know companies and a really new way of working and there definitely is a degree of you know making multiple bets on you know different workflows different you know tools um you know trying yeah trying new uh you know operating motions and just yeah being a little bit being a little bit more more creative and like you're (56:27) definitely going to fail you know sometimes but you know as I think I mentioned earlier that like I really like the quote you shared where like yeah if like one out of five of them works out like the results of you know one of those five workflows is like a really win and you just drop what you know didn't didn't work out. (56:46) Yeah, it I I I definitely agree like being close to the data is is so important. I think the other part of trying to become a a really good first principles thinker is is like understanding what the heck is going on under the hood from like a human perspective. I I tell people a lot is like if you want to get better at building these systems, learn how humans work, but like learn about behavioral economics and psychology and because oftentimes things don't make a lot of sense until you can understand like I was trying to teach my this is a good (57:19) example. I'm trying to teach my team how to run better spiffs and so you know I would talk about I'm like look like you know you don't need to spiff everything. you don't need to like you don't need to make people chase uh chase some incentive for everything that we want them to do. And I was having a hard time like getting them to understand. (57:41) And so I shared these like two uh psychology papers on the overjustification effect. Basically, the overjustification effect is if if you uh overly incentivize some sort of action or activity, what you find is that it actually lowers somebody's natural motivation to do that thing. And there's like a bunch of cool studies in in sort of like early childhood psychology on it because you're you're now taking it's the difference between internal locus of control and external locus of control. (58:13) What you want to give to people to get maximum motivation and drive and action is for them to want to do the things that are good for the business for their own individual reasons from an internal locus of control. So like uh cuz somebody suggested oh like if people uh if people dial late tonight we'll tell them they can uh expense dinner. (58:37) I'm like no flip it. I was like tell people that we're going to like we're we're grinding. we're going to dial late and whoever shows up just be like, "Hey guys, like if if you're I appreciate you being here, like uh get lunch or get dinner on us." And it's very subtle, but you've like allowed somebody to have an internal locus of control, make the decision that they want to put in the work and and dial into the evening to hit their number and try to help the company get to their goals and then we're rewarding them for for doing that (59:04) action. And so it's and it has a very different motiv motivation effect. And I think like once you this is this is what all the research would tell you and like once you can start to understand like how people how people work then you can rederive okay how to build a sales process and uh and uh automation or your customer journey from these like you know like very core things that are under the hood. (59:31) Yeah, I just wrote that down. Like I Yeah, that's I like can think of so many examples and I think like that's so cool. Like I think the best like sales leaders are like really like like like really like like understand like deep deep understanding of psychology. Um yeah and how to motivate teams and how to make people feel really fulfilled, you know. I'll send you the papers. (59:53) Yeah, please do. Yeah, that made me think of like like uh I was like I remember I remember uh like like about a year ago I was in like Mexico City and we sat in a call center for like like 300 people with our CEO at the time and I just watched people like you know do do like do their work. Um like and like they were like yeah like using all these like different machines and workflows and you know just looking at that and like seeing how we were building that you know out uh you know via WhatsApp was just like it was really interesting. (1:00:28) It like helped me understand like just on such a deeper level like what really like what we were like building with an agent and how uh we had like an agent assist platform and was making their you know job a lot a lot easier. And I think I think it's like very much the same with like sales and this is like a really unique time for revenue leaders like we can sit with our teams and see their workflows and see what they're doing and you know it's I think that's like a new skill set of like a revenue leader just (1:00:56) like as you described like this like locust control like you know see see like your team's workflows and like really like like sit with them and analyze them and like you know just like come to them with like ideas that you can make their jobs easier. Like that's like just being an amazing amazing leader. Yeah. (1:01:18) Yeah. Yeah. It's it's uh fascinating to see how many folks do the wrong things because that's how we've done them. And when you learn about the a little bit about psychology, you're like, "Oh, like of course that's not working." You know, the there's this other thing that I that I uh talk about a lot which is like fuel versus friction and it's from behavioral economics. (1:01:39) Like we want to add fuel to everything like more motivation, more push, more more more more more. And really what you need to do is just like take friction out of the things take friction out of the things that are unpleasant to do. And so yeah, like this is this is nudge theory from behavioral economics. (1:01:56) Like if you want people to make dials, make it as like insanely easy to do that as possible and add like take all the friction out of it and uh add friction into the places that you like don't want them spending time. Absolutely. Yeah. There's this quote that we have in our branding that I really agree with. It's like be more human. (1:02:19) And I think there's like kind of this whole like you know humans replace like SDR like agents replacing humans and you know AI replacing humans like or SDRs but I really think like it's this opportunity like be more human like yes I think I heard in like a podcast a while ago like you know like agentic workflows are really going to like uh automate a lot of like the butter passing roles and these are the roles that like no no one really likes to do and they're like really they're like really repetitive tasks and um yeah, I think that like it (1:02:55) just removes friction and people are really going to opt in to you know Yeah. like really like removing friction from their like day-to-day workflows and yeah being being more human. Yeah. and and like what of a sales process or customer journey can a human uniquely do and and I because a lot you know if it's not complex if it's not very challenging AI is going to figure that out pretty pretty fast. (1:03:24) What one of the things that uh Jason said on this um keynote we did today is like the mediocre rep is basically cooked in the next 12 to 24 months. If you're sort of like punching a clock and you're like not that dedicated to your craft, AI is going to basically take like every single one of those jobs. And uh what's left is like uh customerf facing roles with more sophistication. (1:03:52) Uh first question is do you agree with that sentiment that that the the bar of what it's going to take to be you know a sales rep in tech is going to go way up and uh if so what do people need to focus on to be uh future proof in an AI era? Yeah. No, that's a great question. I think a lot about that. (1:04:14) I think um what's going to be really hard for this next like group of folks that like go into tech is like so much of the so many of us learned like from like knocking on doors like the square like showing up to restaurants and people telling me to like go away and just like you know just being really repetitive you towards that a lot of callus and then like you know there were a lot of like entry- level roles before of like really large SDR teams where you come on you could you know shadow a lot of AES and you you know, open up, you know, meetings. And I (1:04:44) think those a lot of those roles are are getting automated. Like, so I think it'll be harder to step into these I think it will definitely be harder to step into to sales roles. And I've heard I've had this conversation with a lot of a lot of different uh like revenue leaders and yeah for like you know just like in that uh kind of like in that scenario the talent density for sales does get a lot does get a lot tighter. (1:05:13) Um, you know, and I think it's I really look at it like as like the A- roll like evolving, you know, it's it's kind of like, you know, 15 years ago how like, you know, the cold calling sales, you know, person was, you know, with a suit was really successful. And then, you know, like, you know, the last like five years, it's folks that like, you know, are really personalized, are experts at their products. (1:05:42) um you know uh have like really great outreach like you know really good hunger hustle instinct like you know are really great at really like smart and consultative you know technology sales you know folks and then um you know now it's now it's evolving into kind of this new era of you know sales uh folks that you know use AI um there is like a there is more of a talent density and I think a lot of like tech sales is shifting to uh to education on on AI and education on the future. I think that if I were to pick (1:06:19) like one skill that I think will really uh separate like kind of this next group of like uh or like future proof like sales, it's like really educa like being being education oriented around and building like a high degree of trust with buyers about how to use AI uh how to build an AI organization. (1:06:40) you know what that the from to you know what that looks like. Um and yeah really being able to like yeah teach and educate on that way. Yeah. I mean Challenger hit on that 2008. So it's it's like more of what has always been uh always made the best reps great. Yeah. Um it's going to be fascinating how we solve that early career problem. (1:07:07) I don't have an I don't have an opinion on it now. I I don't have an answer, but like what do you what do you do when agents can do like 90% of SDR jobs? Yeah. And then that, you know, that I I think that pushes, you know, then agents to doing, you know, some of the later jobs as well. It's it's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. (1:07:33) We're I mean I think you're going to just have to triple down on training and find ways to to level people up before they can really even talk to customers. We're using this like AI sales simulator with with this company called Avara. And so because we want to get reps so many more uh repetitions before they talk to a customer because the cost of every lead is so is so great and the opportunity cost is significant. (1:07:59) Um, and so maybe that just needs to be like pulled all the way forward. You know, you need to do tons of practice and roleplay in an AI sales sim before you can let your team talk to customers because customers are going to expect so much. Yeah, I really think more about sales enablement. I think that is absolutely going to become, you know, more more valuable. (1:08:20) Um especially like yeah creating creating like a higher bar um sales enablement I think will be it's like yeah just just really really really necessary. Yeah. Um okay let's move to our quickfire. I got a couple questions and we'll wrap. Um what do you what do you think separates a good CRO from a truly great one? Yeah. (1:08:49) Um yeah, great question. Um I think um really like deeply like uh yeah like deeply deeply understanding your like your your customers and like having an amazing feedback loop between where your customers are today and you know the teams the teams that you're building. Um yeah, I think that is like that is like the number one number one like skill set of a CRO is like uh like educating and evolving your customers and that's like that's like a really like especially like with when you're um you know focused on like selling a new (1:09:33) like era or wave of technology. It's like really educating your customers on what you know these new uh organizations look like and evolving them and then really educating your team your teams and evolving um yeah your your sales teams. I'm always like focused like uh you know I'm like like yeah three things with building like building uh revenue teams is like really like focusing on like inputs over outputs. (1:10:02) I think that is like highly, you know, highly relevant of like, you know, really focusing on like high quality of, you know, inputs and really less on like end and less on end results like kind of this like score takes the score takes care of itself mindset. One of my favorite books. Yeah, I love that book. um really like hiring a players like just like building a team of people that love to win are really deeply interested in the technology. (1:10:34) Uh really understand your customers and like love to be on a winning team. Like look for a lot of folks like post like athlete backgrounds, someone who's like, you know, really pursued like a you know creative endeavor like really high level. um folks have just like focused on being like the best at something. Um and then uh also like having fun. (1:10:58) I like uh I think really you know like I have this like concept of like mandatory fun with our teams that like every like we like all like really work hard together and like once a month we have this like you know mandatory you know fun where we like really come together as a team and uh I think building relationships is uh really important. (1:11:17) I think there's like a high correlation between uh you know being having uh yeah like really really good really strong relationships and then like making people be great and like if you uh the stronger like foundation of a relationship that you have with your team the like more trust there is and the more Yeah. (1:11:38) you can really you know help evolve your team. Yeah. I think it's a Teddy Roosevelt quote. People don't care. People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And that's very relevant with with sales management. Like it's really hard for people to want to listen to you and take your feedback unless they really feel like you give a crap about their career. (1:12:00) Absolutely. Um what's the most common advice you find yourself giving new leaders, like new VPs of sales, people who are newly in a senior role? Yes. The two skills that you need to build in a senior role is risk- takingaking and decision-m. I think I think those are the two most important skills for you know uh yeah for for a new leader and I um I think like a really like really focusing you know on those two and like really understanding that's your you know responsibility as as a leader within an organization um is (1:12:39) really important. and risktaking being sort of innovating, trying something new. Yep. Okay. I like that framework. Yeah. Yeah. This is good. Um, what's the hardest lesson you've had to learn in your career? Yeah. Um, he learned a lot. Um, let's see. I might need a minute for this one. That's okay. Um Yeah. Yeah. (1:13:14) Um [Music] Um Honestly, for me it's like personal, but like probably patience. Yeah. To be uh um Yeah, probably probably like patience. I think you know it's um I think like you've got and it's like it's uh yeah probably like yeah like patience and like really like when something kind of like resilience too like you know when you uh you know have like a a tough quarter or um you know or yeah like some type of setback in your in your career like really having like faith faith and and and trust that you and finding the right (1:14:02) like mentors to like guide you out of it. I um I have like this mentor like this guy Todd Ruard Miller. who's the SVP of sales at like Netscape and I used to think I'm like oh my gosh all these problems are just happening to me like you know this this is like so unique and then I just developed like a network of revenue leaders and I'm like oh no this happens to everyone and all these other people have been through you know these things so many times and there's really great ways to go about it and I think it's uh yeah I think it's really just (1:14:33) like this uh like skill set of like like never lose a loan. And you when you kind of uh yeah, when you you know have a setback like you know have a really great group of experienced you know people around you to help you navigate that and you really don't have to like no one wins alone and and like never lose alone I think are yeah something I've really learned. Yeah. (1:15:00) Last question. Yeah. Go ahead. Uh last question. What's the best best thing you've read in the last 12 months? Yeah. Um, yeah. Best thing I have read in the last 12 months. Um, I I I pick up this book like once a year. That's really helpful. It's called The Checklist Manifesto. Oh, yeah. Katie is obsessed with this book. Yeah. (1:15:30) And it's just like a reminder that like and it's kind of goes into the first principles thinking conversation that we were having is like any complex workflow whether it's making your bed or performing you know a heart surgery is really just a you know series of of tasks that you know deliver an outcome and really breaking like any complex problem down into simple steps. (1:15:55) And I pick up that book, you know, once a year just to like, you know, as a reminder to like, you know, really just have this, you know, mindset of like whether it's something I'm trying to optimize, really look relooking at the steps and rethinking about how we're going about them or if it's like an entirely new problem or something that I want to achieve that feels really daunting, uh, really thinking about it in like a task or step-oriented way. (1:16:25) Um, a book is is always a really good reminder. Yeah, that's great. Well, uh, Mike, this was awesome. I appreciate it. I think, uh, this is a great framework for people to use to to maybe gro their first steps into an AI world. Uh, so appreciate you joining and, uh, yeah, looking forward to seeing you in Mil Valley soon. (1:16:47) Yeah, likewise. Yeah, thanks for having me on. This is great, Kyle. Thank you for listening to the Revenue Leadership Podcast. 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